More about the ego

June 23, 2014 Divine Love Talk

Guest: Kim Michaels

Topics: Trilogy of books on the ego.

Parthenia:…So, could you start with the definition of the ego and then we can go into the origins of the ego?

Kim Michaels:  There are different ways to define it, of course.  But what comes to my mind right now is that when we, a long time ago, started out as individual beings; we had a very limited, almost a point like sense of identity, a very small sense of self.  And the purpose of our going into embodiment in a dense sphere, like earth, where we have free will, like you said; is really that we expand our consciousness, we expand our sense of self.  And as we expand our consciousness, we become more and more aware that the underlying truth is that all life is one.  We are one with our source, with our creator.  We are one with other beings in the realm where we live.  We are one with the ascended masters above us, who are our teachers.  But what happened to most of us was that we actually, at one point, used our free will to go into a state of consciousness where we have come to see ourselves as separate beings.  And so, the purpose of the ego is really to make it seem believable that we are separate beings and to deny oneness.

Parthenia:OK, now you point out that we are each individualizations of God’s being and that you can never be separated from God in reality, because in effect how could you be separated from God when God is everywhere and everything.  Now, that’s a concept that you hear people talk about all the time, who are religious or spiritual; but when you are coming from the viewpoint of your ego, you also pointed out that the ego cannot see oneness.  It can’t see or wrap its head around the fact that everything is inner connected.

Kim Michaels:  Right.

Parthenia:So, could you talk about how the ego — I like this quote by Sai Baba who says that man minus his ego equals God.  And it seems to me, from most of my studies, that there’s an infinite amount of truth in that; because the ego seems to be the problem that stands between us and this expanded awareness of ourselves and our ability to be at peace with ourselves and everything else around us.

Kim Michaels:  I wouldn’t necessarily agree that man minus the ego equals God.  We are individualizations of God and we start out, as I said, by having a very localized sense of self.  We do have the potential to expand our sense of self until we reach the same level of consciousness as the Creator, who created us.  But that is a process that takes a long time of expanding.  And it’s not just a matter of getting rid of the ego.  You’re not having full God consciousness, because you get rid of the ego.  Because even — getting rid of ego actually means that you are ready to ascend to the spiritual realm.  And even as an ascended master, you can continue to expand your consciousness for a long time before you reach the level of the creator consciousness.

Parthenia:I got you.  OK.  That’s what you mean.

Kim Michaels:  But, what I would say about the ego is that it’s helpful to make a distinction between being an individual extension of the Creator’s consciousness and then seeing yourself as a separate being.


Kim Michaels:  And that’s where the ego comes in.  The ego is what denies that you are one with something greater than yourself.  It says you are an individual, you are a separate being.  You can either do whatever you want or you can never come into oneness with God.  It will always deny that oneness.

Parthenia:OK.  There’s a metaphor in your book about when you’re talking about us as individualizations of God’s being, where it says through the consciousness of oneness, which is also referred to as the Christ consciousness, that you see yourself as a drop in the ocean of God’s being and you know all other drops came from the same source.  I thought that was a very simple, but really powerful, metaphor for the oneness consciousness.  But, you juxtapose that with the consciousness of Anti-Christ, which is the inability to be at oneness with God, that you see yourself as a drop that is separated from the ocean and from all other drops in the ocean.  And I think that pretty much describes the way we view ourselves on planet earth, in general, as them versus us.  And that separation consciousness, which creates all kinds of conflict.

Kim Michaels:  Yeah.  That’s what we’ve been brought up to think about ourselves.  And it’s partly because it’s based on the senses.  It’s partly because even traditional religions usually portray us as being separated from God.  And if you don’t see a connection between yourself and God, how can you really see a connection between yourself and other people?  Because it’s hard, when we’re in embodiment, to see a direct connection with other people; unless we see that the connection is that we all came from the same source.  Then, we can see a connection.

Parthenia:And I think if we were able to embody that and see that or embrace it, we wouldn’t have all the wars and all the conflicts.  That much of it is fear based; but a lot of it has to do with this need for power and control and security by gaining more power and control, which is virtually endless.  But let’s back up a little bit in terms of the formation of the ego, the origins of the ego.  I think we have to go back to the original story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.  And you talked about some of the symbols in that story of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the serpent in the garden and the spiritual teacher that we broke off from.  So, could you talk a little about the symbolisms in the Garden of Eden and how the ego came to be created?

Kim Michaels:  The Garden of Eden, as the ascended masters teach it, was not really what we have been brought up to believe in the Christian religion.  It was a spiritual learning environment.

Parthenia:Like a school room, right?

Kim Michaels:  Yeah.  It was our preparation for coming into embodiment on earth.  So, it was in a higher realm, where the souls or lifestreams were together with a spiritual teacher.  That’s what the — in the Bible it’s called God, but it was really not God in the highest sense.  It was a spiritual teacher.  And so, because of this — see we have all been brought up to believe that in paradise, everything was perfect; but, as I said, it was a learning environment.  You were actually meant to be preparing, going through a process of learning.  And part of what we had to learn was to deal with the temptation that comes with free will.  And this is the temptation that is actually symbolized by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  The tree is not a tree.  It’s a state of consciousness.


Kim Michaels:  And what it really symbolizes is that when you have contact with a spiritual teacher, you have a frame of reference that shows you that there is a reality, there is a truth beyond your own mind.  But take note of what the serpent said to Eve when the serpent tempted Eve.  It said: God knows that if you eat this tree, you’re going to become as gods, knowing good and evil.  The real meaning is actually that you are going to become what you think is a god and you’re going to start defining good and evil within your own mind.  And you no longer have any frame of reference to see that it’s false.  So, it’s like you create this web around yourself and you think this is reality, but in actuality you are disconnected from reality.

Parthenia:And you talked about the duality consciousness, where everything becomes relative and there’s no absolute truth and you start defining everything as the opposite of something else.  And you talked about evil not being, in truth, the opposite of God, but in the duality consciousness that’s how we see it.

Kim Michaels:  Yeah.  Basically, in order to leave the Garden of Eden, which really represents oneness — you have a sense of oneness with a spiritual teacher.  You always have access to this teacher.  And so, in order to leave that state of consciousness, you have into a lower state of consciousness, which is the duality consciousness.  And in the duality consciousness everything is defined, as you said, in relation to an opposite.  But on top of that the ego, which is born when you go into duality — it imposes a value judgment.  So, it says this polarity is good and the opposite polarity is bad or evil, this is true, this is untrue.  And so, what has now happened is that instead of defining reality in relation to a higher authority, you’re defining everything within your own mind.  But, the ego will claim that your definition is an absolute truth.  So, what you define is relative, but you are absolutely convinced that it is absolute.  And that’s why you see people who can be absolutely convinced that their religion is the only true one.  And despite the fact that their religion says thou shalt not kill, it’s nevertheless justified to kill those who don’t follow your religion and God is going to approve of this.  They are absolutely convinced of this.

Parthenia:You’re absolutely right.  You’re listening to Divine Love Talk on CRN.  I’m your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant and I am talking with my co-host, Kim Michaels, about his trilogy of books on the ego.  And today we’re talking about some of the questions that came up, the real purpose of walking the spiritual path.  And when we come back from commercial break, we’re going to talk about the high price or the high cost of free will and more on the ego and the symbolisms in the Garden of Eden story.


Parthenia:OK.  We’re back with more of Divine Love Talk on CRN.  I’m your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant and I am interviewing with my co-host, Kim Michaels, about his series of books, his trilogy of books on the ego.  Today we’re looking at some of the questions that I’m sure a lot of people on the spiritual path have wondered.  Which, I know, the cost of free will, Kim, is something that a lot of us probably when we first understand the double-edged nature of it, would have a hard time wrapping our heads around it.  Because we tend to blame God for giving us free will; because it has a double-edged sword, in that you can do whatever you want under free will, but there’s a price you pay for it.  And I think people who are in their ego, they kind of like the idea of having free will to do whatever they want, but they don’t want to pay the negative consequences of it.  I don’t know if I’m oversimplifying that.

Kim Michaels:  No, I think that’s very true what you’re saying about the ego.  The ego doesn’t actually like free will.  I don’t think the ego really believes, or is able to fathom that we have free will.  And I have now actually, in the many, many years that I have been on the spiritual path and talked with spiritual people; I can actually say that free will is one of the hardest topics to get.  And it’s simply because we don’t get that free will is free.  


Kim Michaels:  Now, you are saying there is a penalty to pay and that’s true.  Because, if you think about it logically.  If you face — let’s say you’re walking down the road and there is a Y, there is a fork in the road.  So, you have to choose one path or the other.  So, you choose one.  And after a while you end up in a certain place.  And then, you say I wonder what would have happened if I’d chosen the other one.  So, you go back the way you came.  Now, you choose the other fork.  And then, you end up in the exact same place.  Have you actually made a choice?  No.  Because there is no difference in the consequences of the choice.  Whether you choice one option or the other one, it didn’t make any difference.


Kim Michaels:  That’s not actually free will.  The only way to have free will is you choose between two options and they have different consequences.  So, what we actually do here on earth is we make choices and the consequences are different.  The problem is that because earth is kind of dense, that matter is dense –

Parthenia:Very dense.

Kim Michaels:  - these consequences can carry over for a time.  And I admit that.  But, the fact is there is no choice you have ever made that cannot be undone by making a different choice.


Kim Michaels:  So, you always have free will.  But, what the ego and the devil and the false teachers all want you to believe is that you can actually make a choice that takes away your freedom of choice.  They want you to believe — and this is actually what is partly embodied in the Garden of Eden story — they want you to believe that once you have made a certain choice, you are trapped forever.  You can only escape if some external savior comes and saves you.  But, what got you into the lower state of consciousness was a choice you made.  And the only thing that will get you out of it, is that you make a different choice.

Parthenia:Yeah.  You’re absolutely right about the fact that — you know even a lot of the psychology programs, in particular psychoanalysis, it just kind of keeps you mired in the not taking responsibility, blaming other people, and this feeling that you are condemned for poor choices that you made in the past, when you didn’t know any better.  And I know, for one, I see that in a lot of people who are hooked on drugs or different kinds of addictions, where they feel so bad about themselves, because of things that happened to them in the past that they couldn’t control.  That they feel like they are condemned for the rest of their lives.  That they are just bad people or worthless people or horrible human beings.  And they will never be redeemed.  Or they’ll never be good in the eyes of other people.  It’s as if they’ve permanently given away their goodness and they can’t own it again.  And that’s very, very tragic.  We’re getting ready to go into commercial break.  So, when we come back after commercial break, Kim, we’ll talk about the positive aspect of free will.  Because there are negative consequences and yet, there are also rewards in exercising your free will in a positive manner.  You are listening to CRN.  I am Dr. Parthenia Grant with Divine Love Talk and we will be back after commercial break with Kim Michaels and his books on the ego.


Parthenia:OK.  We’re back with more of Divine Love Talk on CRN and I’m your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant.  And I am speaking with my co-host, Kim Michaels.  You can find him at about his trilogy of books about the ego.  Today we’re talking about the consequences of free will as a double-edged sword and the origins of the ego and evil.  Kim, we left off talking about the negative consequences of free will and I’d like to emphasize in this half hour the positive aspects of free will.  But, I’d like to share a quote from your book, where you said that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an inevitable consequence of giving God’s co-creators free will.  And humans were designed to be co-creators with God.  I wanted to point that out.  And you said that God could not give you free will without giving you the potential to go outside of God’s law.  Being able to hurt yourself does not mean that you have to hurt yourself.  But, having the potential does mean that you are exposed to the temptation to go outside of God’s law.  So, the serpent can be seen as a symbol for the fact that free will does come with a price, namely the temptation to make choices that harm yourself and all life.  And I’ve always found it pretty tragic that we tend to sink to the lowest common denominator and to go with the negative choices and the choices that are harmful to ourselves, when we have absolute free will and we can make higher choices that will lift us out of this veil of suffering or the Sea of Samsara, as the Buddhists call it.  So, could you talk a little bit on that particular aspect from your book?

Kim Michaels:  Yeah.

Parthenia:I know that was a mouthful.

Kim Michaels:  Just reach back to what you talked about before the break, where we make choices and they have consequences.  And then, what happens is that the ego steps in and actually denies that the consequences we are facing were the results of choices we made.


Kim Michaels:  The ego, as an expert, is making it seem like: Well, this was someone else who imposed this upon us.  Either it was an angry God in the sky, or it was other people, or it was the devil down in hell that did this to us.  And the implication is that if you didn’t do it, you can’t undo it.

Parthenia:Oh, Right!

Kim Michaels:  Right?


Kim Michaels:  So, let’s say that you, Parthenia, you are walking down Sunset Boulevard and it’s one of those hot summer days where the asphalt is bubbling.  And you meat a guy who is walking in this huge fur coat.  He has a big fur hat on and big ski boots.  And he is absolutely sweating so that it’s dripping on the pavement and it’s sizzling when it’s hitting the pavement.


Kim Michaels:  So, you ask him:  “What are you doing?  Why are you wearing those clothes?  Aren’t you dying in there?”  And then, you find out, when you talk to him, that he has come to believe that once he put that fur coat on; he could never take it off.  Of course, you would think he needs to go to some kind of clinic.

Parthenia:Right!  (laughter)

Kim Michaels:  But, this is the situation of all of us, because the ego, the devil, the false teachers, whatever you want to call then, have made all of us believe that once we have made the choice to put on a separate self; we can’t just take it off and be free of it.

Parthenia:You’re right.

Kim Michaels:  And this is what they want for us to continue to believe.  And they have actually created many false religions, many false spiritual teachings that tell us that we can somehow make it to heaven without looking at the beam in our own eye, as Jesus called it, which is really a symbol for the false self, the separate self.

Parthenia:Yeah.  Well that’s why I think that your books are so important, Kim; because they take you full circle back to what the real problem is and who the real problem is and taking personal responsibility.  And as difficult as that is.  And I know that as I’m reading the materials, I see all of the old programs and all of the false beliefs that have to be undone in order to move out of these ego-illusions and ego-games and the ego-dramas.  And the next trick that the ego gets into is making you feel absolutely overwhelmed by all of them and how arduous the path is and I have to admit that I have many, many moments where I just feel like: Oh, my goodness.  I look at the world around me and you can just feel utterly hopeless when you see all of the lost people, all of the craziness and dramas and the chaos that’s going on.  So, what would you say to the people that are sincerely on the spiritual path and they’re struggling with trying to undo all of these programs.

Kim Michaels:  Well, the first thing I would say in your case, or people who are in a similar situation, is stop looking at the world around you.

Parthenia:(laughter)  Oh kaaaay?

Kim Michaels:  No, seriously.  I know exactly what you are feeling.  I’m gone through the same thing.


Kim Michaels:  But, what I came to was the conclusion that I first had to solve my own psychology before I worried about fixing somebody else and fixing the world.

Parthenia:OK.  That makes sense.

Kim Michaels:  And this is actually a detour on the spiritual path, where we start to see the problem.  And I did the same thing.  When I was young and I first heard about the ascended masters teachings and I first started understanding the whole dynamic of the ego; I was totally on fire for saving the world and really making a difference and I was throwing myself at this with all I’d got.  And I came to a point, after some years, where I realized that I was focusing so much on the world and the problems in the world; it actually had become an excuse for not looking at myself.


Kim Michaels:  And really.  So, it takes a certain amount of discipline to say: “OK, but I am an individual human being.  And I am responsible for my own choices.  But, I am not responsible for the other seven billion individual beings on this planet.  And so, I have to focus on freeing myself from the illusions of the ego, rather than freeing somebody else, because you can’t really change other people anyway.”


Kim Michaels:  And what I found was that once I started focusing on myself, it did become easier.  Because it took away the most common excuse used by the ego, which is to make you feel, like you said, overwhelmed and powerless.  Because you look at all the problems in the world and then you say: “Now I see this problem, but I also see that I can’t change that problem; because it’s other people that are continuing to do this.”  And then you feel powerless, right?


Kim Michaels:  So, what you have to do is you only look at the problems that are your problems, that are your responsibility.  And the wonderful thing about free will is that you can change what is your responsibility, what is your sphere of influence.  That you can change, because you can always change your state of mind and your reaction.  And really, the spiritual path can be seen as a process where we, instead of reacting to the world with a pre-programmed response, we actually free ourselves so that we can choose our reaction in any situation.

Parthenia:Well, on a conceptual level, I’ve got that.  And I certainly have learned from my experience at the college that you definitely can’t change a group of people that are hell-bent on just abusing power.  And I’ve given that up.  But I’m saying as I’m looking at myself now and all of the psychology and the programs that have to be undone, that is that other trick of getting overwhelmed about the work that you have to do with yourself.  Because it’s so easy when you get into those negative feedback loops where the monkey mind is talking to you, to just feel like: “Oh, my God, I’m going backwards.  How do I stay going forward?”  And there’s just all these tricks and traps that you fall into that can be overwhelming and I’m admitting that.

Kim Michaels:  Yeah.  But, I totally understand it.  I’ve been there myself.  I’m not saying I don’t, also, sometimes feel overwhelmed.  But, what I have learned over the years is that when you take the teachings of the ascended masters and when you use the tools of invoking spiritual energy like you do with the invocations and the decrees; it’s like you’re actually starting to clean house.  It’s almost like if you go up in your attic and you look at all the stuff that’s accumulated for years and all the dust, you just can’t deal with it.  But, if you start in one corner and clear that corner.  And then, you clear another space and another space.  You will eventually get there.


Kim Michaels:  And it’s perfectly true, like you said, the ego is wonderful at — it’s extremely skilled at making you feel overwhelmed.  It’s, also, extremely skilled at making you feel, as is common in our consumer culture, that the solution should be: five minutes and you should be enlightened.

Parthenia:Yeah.  Hee-hee.

Kim Michaels:  So, you build this expectation that if you had this right spiritual teaching, that it should just be all over in an afternoon.  And so, you have to balance that.

Parthenia:Yes.  Well, I think that is the trick, because we do want to feel like: “OK.  I’ve made progress.  Now, I can rest for a minute.”  And it’s like every time I feel like I’ve made it up one wrung of the ladder and I’m gonna catch my breath, it’s like something is pulling at my foot, pulling me back down that ladder.  And I’m going: “Can you let my foot alone for a minute here?  I’m just trying to take one step at a time.”  And it is really about every day, the practice, every day putting one step in front of the other.  And I’m just trying to find the joy in all of it.  And some days I can.  And then others, it is just arduous.

Kim Michaels:  Yeah.  I totally understand that.  I mean I experienced that myself.  But, I also over the years have learned to realize that I’m actually not pulled back down the ladder.  Because what I have overcome, I have overcome.

Parthenia:Ah!  OK.

Kim Michaels:  I’m just seeing another aspect of all this complexity of the ego.


Kim Michaels:  And so, I actually have learned that you have to be very, very careful that you don’t start thinking — which the ego is also very good at making you feel — that because you are a special person and you’ve studies all these teachings, you’ve been on the spiritual path for so many years; shouldn’t you be enlightened by now?

Parthenia:Mmm-hum.  Yes.  (laughter)

Kim Michaels:  If this stuff really worked, shouldn’t you have made progress?  And that means you shouldn’t have this problem.


Kim Michaels:  What I have realized is that it’s just like saying that there is a stairway that leads to heaven and we’re taking one step at a time.  Right?


Kim Michaels:  But, there is a certain amount of dirt on each step that we have to sweep aside.


Kim Michaels:  And it’s just gonna be that way until the day we ascend.  There’s always going to be that’s gonna come up.  But it doesn’t mean we are down to step one.

Parthenia:Yeah.  OK.

Kim Michaels:  We have made permanent progress.  We have reached a certain level.


Kim Michaels:  So, it’s just a matter of continuing to go up.  And that ties in with what you said before about the positive aspects of free will.  And the positive aspect is, as I mentioned, that there’s no choice you have ever made that can’t be undone by making a more enlightened, a more aware choice.  The lie that is projected out there is that things, whatever happens in the matter world matters.  We talked about this on the show before.  It’s not really the outer conditions that matter.  Because what we are here to do in this material world – we’re not here to produce any particular result here.


Kim Michaels:  This is also another lie.  Some religions say we’re here to create the kingdom of God on earth.  And even some new age spiritual teachings say the same thing.  But, we are actually here primarily to raise our consciousness, to expand our sense of self.  And the way we do this — it’s just like going into a theatre.  We go into a theatre and we look at the different costumes and we say: Oh, I’d like to put on that costume and see what it’s like to be the hunchback in The Hunchback of Notre Dame, for example.  And so, we try on the costume.  And then, after some time, when we’ve had enough of that experience; that is when we have the right to say: “I don’t want to be in this costume.  I don’t want to be in this self anymore.  I want more.”

Parthenia:OK.  That’s where the frustration kind of comes in.  Where you say: “OK. I don’t want to be in this costume anymore.”  And trying to get out of it, it’s almost like the costume gets stuck on you and it’s easy to kind of get identified with the character.  And you see that with a lot of actors.  And you think that’s another trick of the ego, is us identifying with the illusions?

Kim Michaels:  Well, that’s basically what the ego does.  You see.  You’re not actually — you’re not really wanting to know what it’s like to play the hunchback in Notre Dame as an actor playing in a play.  You are actually wanting to experience what it is like to BE the Hunchback of Notre Dame.


Kim Michaels:  You want the total immersive experience.  And that is what the ego gives you.  It gives you the illusion that this is who you are, nothing more than this.  You can never be free of this.  This is essentially the ego’s task, the ego’s job.  And the ego is not really necessarily evil; it’s just doing its job.  It’s just like a computer.  It’s doing its job, what it was programmed to do.  And so, what you really have to do is you can come to the conclusion — now, I understand exactly what you are saying.  You can come to the awareness that this is the role that I’ve taken on.  I don’t want to play this role anymore. Now, how do I get rid of it?

Parthenia:OK.  So, when we come back.

Kim Michaels:  That we can talk about when we come back.

Parthenia:(laughter) After commercial break we’ll talk about how do we get rid of this false sense of identity or false sense of self that the ego has perpetrated?  You’re listening to Divine Love Talk on CRN.  I’m your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant interviewing Kim Michaels, my co-host, about his series of books about the ego.  You can find out more about Kim Michaels at  More after commercial break.


Parthenia:We’re back with more of Divine Love Talk on CRN.  I’m your host, Dr. Parthenia Grant and I’m interviewing my co-host, Kim Michaels, about his series of books on the ego.  And Kim, I wanted you to finish up the point that you were making before commercial break.

Kim Michaels:  So, we have taken on a separate self.  Now, we become aware that it’s like we’re playing a role and we don’t want to do this anymore.  And so, the question is how do we get rid of it.  And we can’t just simply take it off.  What we have to do is we have to reconnect to the desire we had that caused us to go into it in the first place.  What was it we wanted to experience by coming to see ourselves as a separate self?  Then, we also have to unravel the core beliefs that the ego uses to make this seem real.  For example:  Let’s say you have taken on – in the past you were a Crusader.  And you went to the Holy Land and you considered yourself to be a really good Christian, but you felt it was justified to kill other people who were not Christians.  And that God would even approve of this.  And this is obviously a separate self, because only as a separate self can you kill other people.


Kim Michaels:  And so, you have to go back and look at: “Why did I want to have that experience that I could be a warrior who was justified in killing other people?  What was the sense of power this gave me?”  And then, you have to unravel some of the beliefs that the ego is using.  One of which is that the ends can justify the means, which is used in an awful lot of contexts on this planet.  And so, this takes time.  And it can’t be done in five minutes, but it can be done.  And you can really come to a point where you just feel like this self, it literally has died.  It’s gone.  It’s not who you are anymore.  You know this.

Parthenia:Alright, so, we have to look at the core beliefs that are motivating our actions and our behavior.  Is that what you are saying?

Kim Michaels:  Yeah.  Because we had a reason for going into this separate self.  And it was, like I said, we’re standing there looking at the different costumes in the theatre saying I want to experience what it like to play that role.  We have to uncover that.  Why did we want that?

Parthenia:Alright.  Well, the time goes really fast.  I wanted to review very quickly.  At the beginning of the hour, I said we would answer the question: What is paradise?  And in Kim’s book, it is the consciousness of oneness with God.  And that’s what we long for and that’s what we lost.  And in losing that oneness with God and becoming a separate self, we hid from God and our spiritual teacher and we created the ego out of that sense of aloneness and separation so that we could have – not feel so lonely.  That makes real sense to me.  And you also pointed out that the real purpose of walking the spiritual path is to make peace with your spiritual teacher.  So next week we’re going to have more on the ego.  And I’m so grateful to you, Kim Michaels for your body of work.  Keep it coming.

Kim Michaels:  Well, thank you.

Parthenia:And we will see you guys again next week on Divine Love Talk on CRN.



Copyright © 2014 Kim Michaels


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